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This is an experiment to see how honest people can be if they don't have to identify themselves. Some silly, some deep, but all require honesty.
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58 comments:
As a Veteran I had a hard time reading and understanding her comments. The only reason she is able to write and question that is the sacrifice of our veterans.
Secondly, poeple forgot the members of over 20 different countries fought and died beside "Americans" during the Revolutionary war to give us those freedoms. The same freedoms that we now try to give to the people of the Middle East.
I can't say much, I am sure I had some pretty far fetched ideas when I was 20 years old and attending a Christian University. Let her read this in 20 years and see what she thinks.
The Oklahoma Christian Talon published a very similar article. I can't find the link to the original article but here is a response by the author to a person who wrote a letter back to the paper about his first opinion piece. http://blogs.oc.edu/talon/cat/patriot_games/. As a wife of a soldier I find these articles very sad….I guess they would rather just disband the military and hope for the best…I like reading the response to the Harding article. The responder gave many examples of warfare and soliders in the Bible. My husband has often said that not everyone can be in the military but he can. He knows what is asked of him he feels a call to serve and I will support him 100%. I married a man, who happens to be a solider, and I am very proud of his serve and to be called his wife.
That should be very proud of his service... sorry for the typo
So the author is saying it is wrong to say the pledge of allegience as Christians? I totally disagree. I am a Christian and have family in the military. When I say the pledge of Allegience, it is a way of being thankful for the country and grateful that I live in it, here in our temporary home on earth, my ultimate home is in Heaven, this is just temporary. I have never put America before God, we are "one nation under God".
I think the response to the article had a good summary citing scripture.
I agree with the article 100%. The marriage of Christianity and nationalism turns into idolatry, where love of country is equated with the love of Christ.
I did attend a Christian university around 20 years ago. It seems like the first responder thinks that this is because of the writer's youth rather than her conscience, but I doubt that is the case.
In saying these things, I do not look down on or denegrate the role of men and women in the military. This is abut Christendom's idolatrous nationalism.
Excellent question, and I look forward to reading the responses today. Let's all do our best to keep it thoughtful and not sarcastic or mean today. I say this to myself, too.
Hey, Christians: What do you do with the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:38-39? He is speaking specifically about retaliation, and that Christians are NOT to do it. In that light, this "Christian" nation should NEVER have invaded Iraq or Afghanistan. The support of our troops is immaterial, here.
I find the words compelling and they do stir my heart. I come from a long line of family veterans, but unfortunately I believe most American Christians care more about our democracy and freedom than advancing the only Kingdom that really matters.
9:00 AM and those of you that agree with the article ---->
If a pedophile broke into your home to rape, molest, kidnap and eventually kill your daughter or son, would you call the police?
I'm being serious. I'm just curious if you would.
10:18, what does that have to do with allegience to your country?
10:10 = Read the entire article, please. She says:
"As a Christian, I struggle to see any way in which a system that directly kills other humans can be justifiable, and that is what the military is, despite all reasons that may make it necessary or desirable."
Also says some stuff like she doesn't want someone to die for her, etc.
Of course I would call the police. But that doesn't change the words of Jesus, or his intentions that Christians be completely nonviolent.
The statement "Do not resist an evil person" doesn't come with an "unless" clause:
"unless they're breaking into your home."
"unless they attacked you."
"unless you're defending someone else."
"unless you're drafted into the military."
There's no "unless." You won't find it at all in scripture. We're supposed to be completely humble and gentle, not seeking retribution or revenge or to punish.
The times when God's people attacked and wiped out other nations were mandated by God himself, so therefore those actions, by definition, must have been righteous acts. There is no "righteous war" concept in the New Testament. I defy you to find such permission.
Plus, no modern government or nation is God's chosen. Christians of all nations are God's chosen people. And there would be no command from Him today, to us, to go wipe out anyone else. America is NOT God's chosen nation. To say so is, as an earlier poster said, idolatry.
Christians, our citizenship is in Heaven first, NOT the U. S. A.
I'm confused - Are you saying its wrong to call the police?
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13
I read this article on the internet and I like what the author had to say...
In the New Testament, Jesus marveled when a Roman centurion (an officer in charge of one hundred soldiers) approached Him. The centurion’s response to Jesus indicated his clear understanding of authority, as well as his faith in Jesus (Matthew 8:5-13). Jesus did not denounce his career. Many centurions mentioned in the New Testament are praised as Christians, God-fearers, and men of good character (Matthew 8:5; 27:54; Mark 15:39-45; Luke 7:2; 23:47; Acts 10:1; 21:32; 28:16).
The places and the titles may have changed, but our armed forces should be just as valued as the centurions of the Bible. The position of soldier was highly respected. For example, Paul describes Epaphroditus, a fellow Christian, as a “fellow soldier” (Philippians 2:25). The Bible also uses military terms to describe being strong in the Lord by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-20), including the tools of the soldier—helmet, shield, and sword.
Yes, the Bible does address serving in the military, directly and indirectly. The Christian men and women who serve their country with character, dignity, and honor can rest assured that the civic duty they perform is condoned and respected by our sovereign God. Those who honorably serve in the military deserve our respect and gratitude.
http://www.gotquestions.org/military-Christian.html
Is the author against policemen as well? They carry guns and shoot bad people, so do you think they believe that Christians can't be policemen as well? That thought struck me when I read that.
Just because you are saying the pledge of allegiance does not say you are making it an idol. I do not worship the USA, I worship God, and I do not think it is sinful to say the pledge. You are not pledging that the USA is better than God, or even remotely equal, all you are doing is saying you are loyal to it over any other COUNTRY, UNDER GOD. I am suprised that you are offended and think it is idolatry to do so.
Is it wrong to describe yourself as an "Oklahoman"? Are you saying you should only be described as a Christian or it is idolatry?
Jesus also did not denouce slavery. Neither did Paul, who actually sent an escaped slave BACK to his master (check out the letter to Philemon). Would you say they approved of one person owning another?
Jesus did, however, compliment the centurion for his faith. THAT was the point, NOT approval of his chosen career. Same with Peter, when he went to see Cornelius. Cornelius's career was NOT at issue. Expanding the church to include the Gentiles was the issue.
If you're going to take the silence of Jesus (i.e. that he DIDN'T condemn someone for being a soldier) as tacit approval, then by the principles of consistency, you can't use the silence of the Bible to prohibit ANYTHING.
Christians are intended to be pacifists. I'm waiting for someone to give me New Testament for the "just war" philosophy. I still contend it isn't there. We're not called to war against people, but against Satan in the spiritual arena.
Amen to the article. I may not agree with how she makes all her points but the overall sentiment rings true.
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. That freedom, from sin and death, is the only freedom we should be concerned about sharing and is the result of a message of love.
Personal liberties and democracy are nice, but they are not guaranteed by God, nor are they particularly endorsed by Him. The fact that we are willing to let people die to preserve them for ourselves and to impose them on other countries is sad to me.
I support our troops as individuals but I do not agree with war.
I agree for the most part with what the article says. The whole subject of war is a morally confusing one to me but I am thankful for the freedoms I have and I'm sure we take them for granted because none of us can understand life without them unless we are from another country that has harsh restrictions on free speech, religion, etc.
I think it's easy for us as Americans who are free (thanks to our soldiers) to sit back and say that it's wrong to fight for freedom. I think we'd feel differently if we lived in, say China, where they go in and destroy church buildings and beat the Christians who do not follow along with their laws and religious beliefs. I think we should be grateful each time we go to church that there are people willing to fight for our freedoms so that we are free to worship in peace the way we choose to do so. Our God judges our hearts and he knows the hearts of those soldiers at war. It's not something I could do, but I wouldn't question the morality of those that do. That's not my place.
2:46- Interesting comment you made, "I think we should be grateful each time we go to church that there are people willing to fight for our freedoms so that we are free to worship in peace the way we choose to do so." I just have to wonder if Jesus ever intended that we "fight" and/or kill so we can worship him. We know the early Christians were persecuted unto death and they never fought for the right to worship.
Me, I blame Obama. War is his fault.
3:43, you're annoying.
4:11 - you have thin skin
I think when she said "It is frightening...their commitment to a flag" she was a little dramtic. Also when she said she "was deeply shaken by...guns" The POA does state under God so it can't be that frightening. As for guns, I do agree in that it isn't necessary to bring them to chapel. I wouldn't have been deeply shaken, but I would agree to leave them out.
I completely agree with "As a Christian, I struggle to see any way in which a system that directly kills other humans can be justifiable, and that is what the military is, despite all reasons that may make it necessary or desirable." She says she struggles with understanding it. I do too. I struggle to understand a lot. When Dinosaurs existed!?
I also agree when she said "Jesus never promised us protection or the preservation of our ways." To 2:46, I would love to think I could be a Hadassah (A Voice in the Wind by Francine Rivers) if I needed to be. If I lived in China, I may be envious of those who live in America, but I don't think I'd want my country going and killing others in order to gain those freedoms. I'd would hope I could accept what I had and live for Christ.
How could anyone disagree with her saying "how can we possibly condone killing people from other countries who are almost assuredly not Christians in the interest of protecting ourselves and our lives?...isn’t there more on the line for our enemies than for us?" This is not saying I do not think our soldiers are being Godly. It's just something good to think about for sure.
I think it's an over dramatic article written by someone who wants attention.
I think it's a brave article. It takes guts and certainty to publish something like that where she is, when that is NOT the norm.
It is demeaning to say that she wants attention by writing it. I also think it shows gender bias.
Shows gender bias?
Yep, don't think you would say the writer is seeking attention if it were a male. Stuff like that is not said about males, usually.
2:46 here - I agree that I don't want soldiers having to kill people in order for me to worship, but I also know that it's infinitely easier for me to worship in the way that I see fit because I don't have someone telling me I can't. That's the point I was trying to make.
I also think we're putting a lot of emphasis on the "killing" aspect of our soldiers at war. There are many soldiers who go to war and never kill anyone. Certainly they are trained to do so, if necessary, but it doesn't always happen to every soldier.
I also think there is a difference between a soldier who joins the services and goes to war hoping they get to kill someone and a Christian who goes to war, hoping to keep himself and others from being killed. Again - God knows their hearts and He's the one who will judge.
Luke 14:31-32
31 "Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace.
I think the Bible is silent in many areas and it speaks clearly in others. I don't see anywhere where God is going to condemn a soldier for going to war just as you don't see where it says he 'supports' war. I would look at this passage in Luke as an example of where war was mentioned in a way where it shows that God realizes it will happen and expects humans (our leaders, King or president) to use the brain, logic and ability he gave them to determine the cost of war. He may not get it right and you might not agree with his decisions or justifications. I may not fully agree with the Iraq war, but I do agree with the military and I want someone out there defending me. I don’t want anyone to be able to come into my home and harm my family. I want the police and the soldiers to protect me and my family. I want someone to attack those that threaten to take away all I hold dear. If you do not agree and feel that you want to disband all those that protect us (because that is what I hear in many of the comments made here) then I think you need to try to live in a country where you wouldn’t be given protection and see if you feel safe. I understand we live under the New Testament but God didn’t tell us to never look back at the OT.
AMEN 6:35pm
Hahaha! Finally! I’ve been waiting all day for someone to throw out the “If you don’t like it, leave it!” cliché. Thanks for not letting me down 6:35 and 7:02! It’s always telling about a person when it comes to the point in an argument where they resort to either, “Let’s just fight about it”, or “Call each other names”, or “Love it or leave it.”
In my limited experience it’s really tough to share the good news of the Gospel with someone when you’re shooting or dropping bombs on them. “For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.”
(2 Corinthians 10:3-4)
I didn't tell you to "leave it". I simply said maybe you should try to live in country where you aren't granted protection and see how you like it.
By the way what "is it telling" about someone? I mean... really if you believe in peace you shouldn't even be arguing on this site... I mean how is your message of say "hahaha" at the beginning of your message positive and preaching good news? Just wondering.
6:35- I'm 4:32 and I haven't read any response here that gave me the impression they "want to disband all those that protect us" There is a big difference with saying they are struggling to figure out how to mesh the two (war and Christianity) together and them wanting to disband everything.
I LOVE my freedoms here don't get me wrong, but if I lived somewhere else and didn't know any different, I wouldn't know what I was missing. I'd like to think I'd be living for Christ no matter what situation I was in. I see your point and agree with you. I see and agree with both sides. The bible doesn't flat out say either way so differing opinions don't necessarily mean we don't agree!
The bible doesn't flat out say either way so differing opinions don't necessarily mean we don't agree!
The Bible, in fact, does say "flat out." We choose to accept or ignore based on myriad other factors. However, this passage sound like the definition of "flat out".
Luke 6: 27 ff "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you . . . If someone takes your cloak, . . . 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32"If you love those who love you what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend. . . 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
I think "flat out" refers to "It is never OK to go to war" "If someone wants to destroy your country, let them" Like people have previously stated, there are passages of war as well.
6:35 -- you totally missed the point of the passage you quoted, you're wrong, and you're taking it out of context. Jesus was not condoning war or giving permission for it or encouraging it or even recognizing it as a necessary evil or a choice based on some economic harm or benefit.
The point of that passage is that if someone wants to follow Jesus, they have to be fully aware of the great personal cost of following Jesus. By your application, though, Jesus comes off merely as a good economic and political advisor.
If you wanna show that God approves of Christians going to war, find another scripture to do it with.
Hey, 6:35, it's not your day, cuz i'm about to pile on, too.
"I think you need to try to live in a country where you wouldn’t be given protection and see if you feel safe."
You are putting the American feelings of safety and freedom above the teachings of Jesus. Christians are NEVER promised safety and freedom. We're never instructed to SEEK safety and freedom. These might be American ideals, but they're not God's.
What's most important to God is our salvation and righteousness, NOT our comfort, safety, freedom, or even our health. Check out Mark 2:1-9. When the paralyzed man is let down through the roof to Jesus, he forgives his sins FIRST. He doesn't heal him right away, and the indication in that passage is that he heals him only to make a point to those who doubt that he has authority to forgive sins in the first place.
Don't get confused about the purpose of the OT, either. The NT clearly states that the OT was for people to read to be led to Jesus (Galatians 3:24). War in the OT was commanded by God. Don't see too much of that happening in the NT or nowadays, either. New times, new behavior.
How do you know it's not being commanded by God?
5:56 - Are you kidding me?
Let's look at the criteria:
We need a people opressed. OT: Israel. Today: Hmmm. America? Not so much.
We need a handpicked leader, proven to be God's messenger by signs and miracles and disasters. OT:Moses. Now: Still nothing, unless you know something about Dubya that I don't.
We need a Promised Land to move these people and this leader into. It should be a land that was promised to us hundreds of years ago through prophesy to our common ancestor. OT: Canaan, promised to Abraham. Now: Iraq, America's promised land? Even worse, Afghanistan? Again, not so much. And who's our common ancestor?
We need about five or six nations whose wickedness, idolatry, oppression of the weak, defiance and disobedience to the will of God is SO BAD that God cannot stand for them to live in close proximity to his chosen people. They have taken up residence in the Promised Land, and are WAY MORE POWERFUL than we are. OT: the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. Now: Umm, help me out here ...
We need great victories over these stronger nations, victories that are caused by God and his intervention, not by our strength or skill. OBVIOUS interventions by God, like rocks falling from the sky kinds of things. OT: Read the book of Joshua. Now: Miracles curiously absent, politicized lying and dithering distressingly present, along with violations of international treaties and basic decency.
WHAT great man of God was ordained to invade WHAT nation and completely wipe it off the face of the Earth because of its great evil, because of the moral danger it poses to our lowly, small and weak nation? From my observation, America is HER OWN moral danger.
I really hope you were kidding, 5:56. Because if you weren't you have some seriously misplaced faith and you don't know the scriptures.
Good to know that you know everything God is thinking.
7:24- I'm not the person you are referring to, but to start off...your last sentence should have been left off and I would have more respect for you. I like respectful opinions.
Just because those happened to be the circumstances that were surrounding that war doesn't mean that is the only reasons you can go to war? It's not like the Elder's qualification list that is black and white. I think you are making the bible speak more than it is. Just my opinion.
I am not going limit God. Bush could have prayed everyday for an answer on what to do and I'm not going to be the one that says God didn't lead him to do it. That just isn't my place.
http://www.gotquestions.org/war-Bible.html is interesting.
Romans 12:18 "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." This indicates there are exceptions. Paul does say "do not take revenge" which to me states to try and live at peace and work things out. Don't get worked up and want to go kill with a vengeful heart.
I do find it interesting in Matt 24:6 "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things MUST happen, but the end is still to come." The word MUST is used and not MAY or WILL. I just find that interesting.
But he did use war as an example... he could have chosen some other example (and did in the same passage) but he choose instead to use war. Sorry but that alone says something. I agree God would wants us to live in peace and have no war but what about WWII...do you not think it was ok for America to go and help out there? I mean concentration camps? Really, should we just let people like Hitler take over? Just a question. I think we are called to more than to just sit passively by and pray that things will be ok, just my opinion. You are more than welcome to your’s.
America is NOT the church!
America is NOT the church!
America is NOT the church!
Let secular governments do what they want -- they're not bound by Biblical principles in the same way that Christians are. Jesus recognized that wars would happen, but that's different from condoning that his disciples go join in, and even more, consider them a RIGHTEOUS act.
And the FACT is, while we can't know the whole mind of God, we CAN know what he has revealed to us. What he has revealed is that HE gets to say who goes to war on his behalf. In the Bible, that was Israel.
Sometimes God used war AGAINST his people to make a point. God CAUSED Assyrian and Babylonian invasion, siege, and captivity against Israel. I notice that no one's mentioning that one. But how are you coming out in favor of THAT maneuver? No one's saying 9/11 happened because God caused it to turn his chosen people AMERICA back to him. If you're going to support the one side, you have to allow for the other.
I have to say that a lot of these comments are quite harsh and would be regarded as hurtful by Christian military service members.
I think people are too eager to try to convince others to their opinions and they don't take other peoples feelings into consideration.
I am surprised by the comments about offending our military personnel, and I am wondering if you are the same poster who raised that point the other day?
Again, NOTHING I have read here devalues those who serve in the military (or the police for that matter, as one poster dragged them into it).
No, I'm not that person.
It just seems to me that some of these commentators are so far into their opinions that make it sound like there should be no military and any Christian that is in the military is going to go to hell.
The things that people put up here are OPINIONS, whether they're based on scripture or not. If you're a Christian in the military, it's obvious that your conscience has led you there, you believe that your decision is blessed by God. That's fine. But you have to allow for others to disagree without getting your feelings hurt.
You've made your decision based on a clear conscience. Now own it! Stand in it! Defend it! But don't get offended because somone believes differently.
I am 11:11. I am not 11:35.
You cannot conform to all of the teachings and guidance provided in the New Testament while simultaneously conforming to our society in America (please tell me if you are able, so I can therefore change my life completely). And you cannot, therefore, take one scriptural passage, like from Matthew 5:38-40, and base your pacifist beliefs off of it. You also cannot say that you will base your beliefs off of the idea that since Jesus did not address an issue, it is a moral truth or is not a moral truth. For example, you cannot say that since Jesus did not address the topic of someone serving as a Christian soldier specifically, he must have condoned this (or didn’t condone it – either way you want to look at it). In the Old Testament, God destroyed cities and commanded armies to destroy cities. One could argue that neither God, nor Jesus, commanded anyone in the New Testament to kill anyone or to send an Army out to eliminate a city or village, etc. Therefore, he does not condone a Christian serving in the military. In fact, Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves, and to turn the other cheek if one cheek is struck. It is true that God spoke in past times to the prophets and the present time through his Word, according to the letter to the Hebrews. What we should do then is turn to the Bible, and not use our own opinions, to find out if God supports the soldier. In Old Testament times, did God see the serviceman as noble? Would God use members of the military to further His plan if these people were “evil”? What would the difference be, then, in New Testament times? What about the present time?
What about “turn the other cheek”? Jesus is showing here how people should avoid personal vengeance; he’s not condoning pacifism. What about “love thy neighbor as thyself”? Maybe we should strive for this, and if it turns out that we learn too late that our neighbor next door was a mass murderer who ends up killing our family, and we in turn kill our neighbor out of self-defense, maybe God will provide grace and forgive us. Or maybe I, as a Christian serving in the armed forces, protect your freedom to worship freely and to speak freely.
In no way am I trying to sound accusatory; I’m just speaking realistically – probably 90% of US citizens have the luxury to live in an idealistic, pacifistic world if they want to. If they desire, they can ignore the ugliness of the world. They may ignore the hatred, murder, rape, arson, child molestation, torture, and beating of innocent human beings, and sit back and observe while the police, firemen, servicemen and women, and others protect our neighborhoods and communities. Believe, if you will, that the hundreds of millions of souls of the past (American or foreign – whether they called themselves Christian or not) who died to protect and save the innocent, or prevent atrocities from happening, went to hell because they were not a Christian according to your standards. Or you can believe in the opposite. The beautiful thing about our society is that you may believe what you want. You can sit back and relax, take your shoes off, and I and others will protect your liberties and your freedom to remain an ignorant pacifist.
in all seriousness, Are those who are opposed to the military and war, are you saying it is wrong to be a police officer too?
"An ignorant pacifist."
That's not what I choose to be. I choose to be a well-informed, highly educated, thoughtful and prayerful pacifist.
So thank you for defending my right to be THOSE things and for disagreeing with my own conclusions.
"Believe, if you will, that the hundreds of millions of souls of the past (American or foreign – whether they called themselves Christian or not) who died to protect and save the innocent, or prevent atrocities from happening, went to hell because they were not a Christian according to your standards. Or you can believe in the opposite."
This statement sounds to me like you are saying all mitary service is noble and all military actions are for this good purpose. Many atrocities have been comitted by militaries in the name of the government throughout much of history. So you have to take that into account, too.
As for determining whether or not a person is in burning in the lake of fire or resting in Abraham's bosom, any of us would be remiss to make that call. It is simply not our judgment to make.
Beautifully said 1:54pm.
Many of you are arguing against pacifism based on PRACTICAL results.
But before any of that, you have to ask, "is war right/permissible"
No matter the good ends, you have to answer the "is it right" question first.
If it's not right, then no good results (protecting the innocent, protecting freedom) matter.
I'm not saying war is not right, just saying you have to get to the root of the question.
So far, I've heard:
1) War is permissible for Christians because my family member who is a Christian is also a soldier.
2) War is permissible for Christians because it sometimes produces good results.
Neither of these address this statement:
"War is permissible because the Bible permits it." THAT'S the statement that you have to answer one way or the other.
3:18, what is beautiful about labeling someone with different views "ignorant"?
Please take issue with that part of the ststement. Although MOST of what that poster wrote is eloquently worded, the slam toward the end is a personal attack, and hardly beautiful.
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