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This is an experiment to see how honest people can be if they don't have to identify themselves. Some silly, some deep, but all require honesty.
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28 comments:
I don't know. I thankfully was able to have children on our own. But I kind of always thought if I couldn't have kids, I would try the shots of medicine but would stop before it got to invitro and then go to the adoption route since there are plenty of babies and kids that need good homes. I can understand the drive to want to have your "own" kids, but I still don't think I would of done invitro. Plus, isn't it super expensive??
Is using any medical technology to save a life playing God?
I think we should use the knowledge and abilities that God has given us in ways that will please him.
Is this the new life going to be a human that will praise God.
I don't feel like there is anything wrong with it.
I do think they should only be allowed to put 2 fertilized eggs in at a time though.
Amen 7:15! I have actually done in-vitro and I thank God every day that it worked for us. I pray all the time that my son will grow up to love and honor God and touch the lives of many with the gift of life he was given. If we say in-vitro is wrong then is using chemo/radiation wrong to use in order to save a cancer patients life?
(The doctors put two embryos in and only one took. I agree that there shouldn't be any more than two, but in-vitro doesn't have the greatest success rate.)
I think God is all about us having breakthroughs in technology, medicine, etc. For some, they may feel more compelled to adopt, especially when birth parents are able to change their minds in the US. International adoption is VERY expensive. Some just may feel it is right for them to try invitro. I know someone who had their tubes tied and ins. wouldn't pay to have them undone but would pay a lot more for invitro. Crazy! Anyway, How is it any different than having plastic surgery? Or even coloring your hair! God gave you grey hair...why change God's plans?
I am the first poster, and I just wanted to add that invitro is not the same "dyeing your hair" or "plastic surgery", it kind of makes me sad that people compare that to it.
I don't have an issue with the doctors combining the egg and sperm and then putting it in the women, I do have an issue with all the other fertiziled eggs being thrown in the trash, that is the part I am unsure off. It is a human life and it isn't the same as getting a boob job.
If helping *create* human life is playing God, then is the reverse also true? Is birth control of any kind wrong?
That is interesting that you state what human life is.
Does a fertilized egg have a soul? That's the question.
How can we know the answer to that?
9:46, 7:47 here. Most people who do in-vitro save their fertilized embryos (have them frozen) for if/when they want to do IVF again. I started with nine and by the day of implantation only two were viable. There is also a choice of donating your embryos to couples who are unable to do it themselves. I've never heard of anyone "throwing away" the embryos not used.
1st poster here again, My conscience just does not allow me to think it is okay to create a bunch of embryos and then not use them all. Seriously, I don't think ALL unused embroys are "adopted", I am sure there are many that are thrown away or destroyed to say there aren't isn't true.
11:30, I do believe life begins at conception, do I belive there are a bunch of "unused embroys" or "aborted fetuses" in heaven? No, I belive they are there, but in the forms that they were meant to have here on earth, like at their best phyical condition, if that makes sense.
Thankfully again, I wasn't ever in the positon where we struggled to have kids, but I still don't think I would of every had in-vitro. I just don't think I would of ever had a clear conscience doing it.
Even though in vitro is much more serious than hair dye, I do think it is on the same continuum. How much are we to engineer what God has given us?
There are people all over the map on that question.
To 12:11, I am fascinated by your concept of unused embryos and aborted fetuses (and miscarried ones, too?) in their best potential physical condition, to paraphrase, and if I got that right.
Hmmm. Gonna have to mull that over.
who are these people that think its wrong to dye your hair???? I don't think I've ever met you. that's insane! Do you cut your hair, shave your legs, wear make up, wear deoderant? Are these things wrong as well, I mean they are 'altering' what God has given you, right? I think that's taking it a little far.
7:15 and 7:47,
I think there is a significant distinction between using medical advances to "save" a life vs. using medical advances to "create" a life.
I don't know about you but when I get to heaven I'm going to have something better than my best physical condition.
To 1:29, I don't claim to be an expert on heaven or anything, but think about it, do you think when an old lady goes to heaven that she remains an old lady in an old body with aches and pains? Do you think when a baby dies at 6 months old, it remains a baby for all eterenity? From my understanding, we get a new body, a better version of ourselves, so like if you can't walk here, you can there, can't see here you can there, the way that God intended our bodies intended to before sin entered the world. Again, I could be wrong, I don't claim to be an expert. Do you think there is like a hall of aborted fetuses in heaven that remain that way? I think they are probably at the best posible shape they could be or weren't meant to be in, like if you thikn you were in your best shape when you 19, I don't k now, maybe that is the peak of performance for our bodies, I don't know. I am not saying heaven is full of bunch of teenagers, so don't misquote me.
Here is a passage I just copied from the bible 1 Cor. 15:35-58 (NLT) " 35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?” 36 What a foolish question! When you put a seed into the ground, it doesn’t grow into a plant unless it dies first. 37 And what you put in the ground is not the plant that will grow, but only a bare seed of wheat or whatever you are planting. 38 Then God gives it the new body he wants it to have. A different plant grows from each kind of seed. 39 Similarly there are different kinds of flesh—one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
45 The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.”[h] But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. 46 What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. 47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48 Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like[i] the heavenly man.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! 52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. 53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.
54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[j] this Scripture will be fulfilled:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.[k]
55 O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?[l]”
56 For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. 57 But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be strong and immovable. Always work enthusiastically for the Lord, for you know that nothing you do for the Lord is ever useless."
1st poster again and I just read my last post 2:42, I wanted to clarify, that I don't think we are going to be acne riddened teenagers again, my point was that I belive God will transform our bodies into something MUCH better than what it is now, but we will still be recognizable, aren't there passages talking about recognizing others in heaven? So I don't just think we are going to be beams of lights floating around. How would recognize that?? I don't belive we become angels like some like to say. Angels are a different being all together than us, we don't become them.
My posting has gotten WAYYY off point, but I do know 100% that heaven will be much better than what we imagine and won't be disapointed and I still feel iffy as to the whole in vitro thing.
All I want to do is mull over what you said. I am definitely there with you on new but recognizable editions of ourselves, and definitely not angels.
I think you read a lot of judgement in my comment. Sorry about that. I think you have an unusual take on it, and I am indeed mulling. :)
It's not place to judge anyone who has had in-vitro. I feel very blessed to have been able to have my own children. However, isn't in-vitro rather expensive? In my personal opinion, wouldn't it be better to spend that money on adoption and save a child who ALREADY has life, and has not known Christ's love? If we truly think about what it means to love, we should be able to love a child who is not ours biologically as much as we love one who is. Doesn't the Bible teach that we should take care of the fatherless and the widows?
Just my humble opinion.
4:31, Sorry if I came across sounding harsh responding back to you, I really wasn't meaning it sound that way. :) Thanks for claryfying your comment!
As long as we're talking about "What God intended .... " (as if we could know)
Let's take it all the way back. The Bible clearly teaches that it is God who opens and closes the womb. If my womb is "closed" I am unable to have children. Shouldn't I take that as God telling me that I was meant to do something ELSE with my life? This would be regardless of how I feel about my circumstances.
Prayer could change God's mind on this .... Bible is clear about that, too (Hannah the mom of Samuel the prophet). But maybe we shouldn't seek artificial solutions to things that God doesn't view as problems. Clearly my barrenness isn't too much of a problem for God, barren or changed from barren to fertile.
Talk of artificial solutions such as these makes me wonder how well we're doing leaning on God and letting HIM be our sufficiency. He's greater than our perceived need for children .... why not treat Him as such?
2:17- I NEVER said its wrong to dye hair. I posted that first one and never said it was wrong...because I don't think invitro is wrong. I said its playing God just as much as those non controversial things. God gave us many things that we have changed. He gave us a mind with ability to do things differently.
Also, to the other one saying how crazy it was for me to compare those...I am not comfortable with destroying embryos either. I haven't thought that far. I was just talking about making a few embryos and inserting them all eventually.
Some people really love adding words in others mouths!
I also totally agree on adoption. I'm thinking of it myself. I just like trying to stand up for both sides. I don't like being quick to judge, especially if I don't think its a salvation issue. People keep talking about how expensive it is, but some people have insurance that pays but doesn't pay for adoption. As said before, US adoptions can fail and I know someone that has had that happen and it's terrible. International adoptions are 25-50,000 bucks.
What I would love to do is adopt out of foster care. I love the idea, but I am not convinced it is "playing God" or else so many other things are. People use "medical advances to CREATE life" by using shots, pills, etc. Are those just as wrong?
I am all for people praying and waiting for God's answer, but no one can say God would never answer, yes try invitro! He just may.
We went through infertility but miraculously have a child now and have conceived again.
I did alot of research, and I do not judge those that have been through in vitro.
I don't morally feel comfortable with IVF for several reasons, but if we had reached that point, I would have elected to do the GIFT procedure, where the sperm and the egg are mixed together, then the mixture is placed directly into the fallopian tubes. There's only one doctor in the US that still does the GIFT procedure on a regular basis - we would have travelled to AZ to have it done.
As far as the adoption comment, that sounds like something I would have said in my pre-infertility days. However, I don't think many people realize that not everyone qualifies to adopt. For example, if you are a cancer survivor, have had some depression, your husband got a DUI 20 years ago, etc. Also, adoption is more expensive the IVF - to adopt from China (which is where we were leaning) it is roughly 35,000ish dollars. From foster care in the US it is cheaper, well free, but I could never take care of a baby/child with the possibility of having to give it up!! Don't judge someone who chose infertility treatment over adoption, as you may not know the situation!!!!!!
As far as prayer over IVF, how do you know IVF is not God's answer to the prayer of the infertile patitioner.
Um 10:10...I am going to have to completely disagree with you. You must either:
a) Be a man
or
b) conceived children easily.
I am disappointed with how easy you think it should be to live one's life without children. I think God gives children to us so we can understand, in a minuscule way, His love for us. If I had not been able to have children, I would have gone to whatever lengths to make it happen.
And the more I think about your comment, the more it upsets me.
10:10 here.
I didn't say it was easy to be barren. In fact, I have met or even heard of very few (maybe one or two in my whole life)other women who consciously make the choice to forgo childbirth. The Bible is very open about the anguish barren women experience, so I'm led to believe that it's normal to feel that way. Led by my own experience with miscarriages.
But God operates outside our feelings, on HIS timing. Rebecca prayed for a child for nearly 20 years before God said yes. Rachel desperately wanted children, but God closed her womb because of her husband's wrong attitude.
My point was that Christians shouldn't use children as a way to feel complete. The all-sufficient Christ shouldn't be replaced or supplemented by anything. Is he TRULY our "all in all?"
Plus, God doesn't only use children to tell us about Him. I can learn about God's love from other places besides the children I don't or can't have.
10:10 -
I didn't notice your comment earlier, wish I had.
I encourage you to join the website hannahsprayer - www.hannahsprayer.org - you have to make 10 posts before you can fully see everything though. Just say you are trying to be a little more compassionate towards people with infertility, or whatever. Perhaps by visiting the website, you will be more understanding of someone struggling with infertility.
The truth is, no one knows God's will. And, you should never, ever tell someone that it's God's will for them to not have children.
If someone's child was kidnapped would you say?
"Maybe this is God's way of saying you're not meant to be a mother anymore?"
If someone's child had cancer, would you say?
"Perhaps God wants your child to die becuase you were meant to do something different with your life?"
NO, of course not! No one would ever say that.
Well, that's what it's like saying to someone with infertility that it's God's will.
In conclusion, never, ever, ever, ever say any of these things that you've written (on this blog post) to someone in real life or through e-mail. Please.
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